Here is the transcript of a lively conversation I had the pleasure of participating in.
There are many Christians today who hold to Enthusiast doctrine without knowing it. We as Lutherans and fellow brothers in the faith (“Jesus, the Crucified, is Lord” faith), should seek to placard Christ and Him crucified before their eyes, not their spiritual gifts or their own powers. Let us pray to our Father through Jesus Christ that a love for the truth and comfort of God’s Word would be engendered in all of us as we are reminded to look where God has revealed Himself.
I entered the argument with “Z” here:
Kyle: By the way, I love this whole argument because it is exactly what I would expect a “Pentecostal Leaning” individual to write. They always like to throw themselves into the scripture and make everything a precedent for themselves, rather than reading scripture didactically like the rest of the historic Christian Church. We would all benefit from some reading of Luther’s apologetic against the Anabaptists who argued the same way.
Kyle: Prophesy is always about Justification, and Tanner, you were truly prophesying. Here’s a prophesy, read the Apostles Creed.
Z: Kyle where is the applaud to my great confession? I don’t understand why you would applaud him and say that I am not didacticly reading the scripture.
Kyle: Tanner and I confess the Apostolic, Pauline, and Orthodox doctrine of the Holy Spirit working through objective means outside of ourselves. We know that God’s word confesses Christ and Him crucified, and does not glory in one’s own powers or gifts. Praise God that I do not rely upon myself, but that God works through PROMISED means to bring me daily back to Himself, Baptism, Preaching, the Sacrament, which Enthusiasts do not believe in.
Kyle: God has not promised to reveal His will to us directly and immediately (without means), as for example through visions and dreams.
Kyle: Special signs and wonders are not indispensable guarantees that the Spirit of God dwells within an individual.
Kyle: The gift of the Holy Spirit does not necessarily include extraordinary spiritual gifts.
Z: Okay wait first comment I believe like you do. I do not glory in my power or gifts because they are from God. So I glory in God! And the rest does not make sense to me at all. What is the difference between an extraordinary gift and a natural gift. All gifts given from God are supernatural in that He gives grace and apportions it to whomever He has given the gift too. So all gives are not ordinary but super since they are from God and of divine origin. I do not glory in the gifts but in God through Him all gifts are given. And God has shown us His Will through the bible. So are you saying God cannot speak to our hearts through His Word? And way too many people today are having dreams and visions from God. If you receive a dream or vision you must test it next to the scripture. If it does not line up then it is not from God but if it does then it is from Him. So first off dreams and visions do occur, secondly they must be tested according to the Word of God then you can tell that the Word Himself is speaking to you. And to be honest with you I believe that there are great indispensable signs in every believer whether they choose to recognize it or not. One being salvation, another being divine appointments with people, praying for someone to get saved and seeing that person saved or healed or delivered etc.
Kyle: ”Okay wait first comment I believe like you do” Are you a Lutheran?
Z: I am not a Lutheran but I am a follower of the Lord Jesus Christ and He is both Savior and Lord of my life.
Kyle: So you do not believe exactly as I do, I now wish to go through and ask questions pertaining to your response. please allow me also to comment so that we may build each other up in the true faith, which is the work of prophesy.
Z: And I only believe partially like you do. This is the point I am trying to make here. Y’all seem to clump people together without first realizing common ground.
Kyle: ”What is the difference between an extraordinary gift and a natural gift. All gifts given from God are supernatural in that He gives grace and apportions it to whomever He has given the gift too. So all gives are not ordinary but super since they are from God and of divine origin.” This is basically a vocabulary issue, and you are just arguing semantics here. I said “extraordinarily”. I never said natural gift. “Extraordinary” gifts include tongues, miracles, miraculous healings, and prophecy. The point I was making was that God may choose various gifts at various times, and we have no reason to expect the power to heal or prophesy today.
Kyle: ”So are you saying God cannot speak to our hearts through His Word?” I never made that claim, and it is odd to me that you would say “to our hearts.” Nevertheless, I believe God communicates only through his Word, which is Scripture, the Sacrament, and Baptism.
Z: if I may let me respond back
Z: We do not have any reason to not expect such “extraordinary” gifts not to occur. and the Bible never says that the gifts were to be hindered or ended.
Kyle: An argument from silence is no argument at all, that is just logic. Indeed, but those gifts are changed with time and by His good pleasure.
Z: Sorry man but that doesn’t make sense to me.
Z: Also the next thing you said was that it is odd that God speaks to our hearts…okay well if this is so then why did He give us hearts. Why are we commanded to love the Lord our God with all of our hearts, souls minds and strength. Also Hebrews 4:12 says that the Word is living and active sharper than any double edged sword and divides between soul and spirit judging the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Kyle: The point is that we are not ever expected to be able to heal someone, prophesy, or perform miracles like during apostolic times. There is no didactic teaching to expect to. The only thing we know is that God will provide in His good pleasure. So, doing my homework is a gift of the spirit, helping my mom is a gift of the spirit. I do not have to heal, perform miracles, or any such thing. This is what I am arguing against, and I am not sure if you are arguing for it.
Kyle: This comment relates to the “heart” subject. I was just making sure that you thought God only works through His Word to communicate to our “hearts,” which is just a way that scripture speaks. Many Enthusiasts like the “heart” talk because it gives them a bit of authority over the Word and makes Scripture mystical. Lutherans shy away from the heart, because we know that only evil comes from the heart as Christ plainly said to the Pharisees. We like God to speak to our hearts sure, but we do not rely on our Hearts to speak God’s Word. You see? I am not saying that you believe any of this, I am just hoping that you do not and will agree.
Z: You don’t have to do any of that but as you say God will provide in His good pleasure. God has provided me with gifts of the Spirit on which I have used with the grace apportioned to me. One of the gifts is healing and multiple people can attest to the fact that when I have prayed for them God healed them. This is not for my glory but for God. Also there is a prophetic gifting I have too and I have prophesied over people and this confirmed the word of the Lord in multiple people and was about the work of the Lord or direction of the Lord in their lives most of the time. I could go on but I don’t know if you would believe me.
Z: I believe that you are right in that evil does come from the heart…however when Christ came He came to save, heal and deliver spirit, soul and body. This encompasses all of us our heart is included and we are told to renew our minds in the word by the washing of the water of the Word. We have a new nature in Christ and we now have the mind of Christ and therefore can spiritually discern all spiritual things. God communicates through His Word to us. We read it but it goes into us, washes us, penetrates our hearts, and we commune with Christ and share His thoughts and His intercessions and His feelings etc. This means that we have complete fellowship and communion with Him it is not simply reading the Word but having a relationship with the Word Himself. Not simply the book but the author of the book. Jesus also said that the people were poring over the scriptures thinking that by it they could somehow attain salvation when He was right before them. He Was and IS and will always be the Word who came in the flesh. He desires intimacy with us. He has always desired this and has broken down the middle wall so that we could enter before the throne of God. From what I am understanding from you it seems that you do not believe that we can see heaven. This implies that you do not believe that the eyes of our hearts can be enlightened as it speaks of in Ephesians 1 because that would be classified as mystical and your position also shows that you do not believe what Jesus clearly told Nicodemus that those who are born of the Spirit or born again can see the kingdom of heaven which would mean that the eyes of their understanding i.e. spiritual eyes or eyes of the heart, or imagination or understanding which it speaks of in the Greek cannot be opened as they are sanctified in christ as a new creation.
Tanner: Thanks Kyle! I’m glad that u think I’m conveying my ideas well, that complement means a lot to me, and I can’t wait to see you at Christ academy either! This year will be awesome. I will comment further on the issue at hand, when I get access to a computer so I can type better!
Kyle: God’s healing is not your gift, that is sure. We are called to prayer, which is a blessed Gospel and comfort, as Christ prayed the Lord’s Prayer (Which is Scripture). I flat out don’t believe the “direction of the Lord in people’s lives” part, unless that included forgiveness of sins and that only. Prophesying is just basically proclaiming the good news of Christ’s death and resurrection for sinners. That’s Scripture, and Scripture stands.
Kyle: Wow, I love the second comment by the way. It really shows you care about what you are saying. However, this is where we must part ways. You misunderstand much of the Scripture, and therefore what our state is as fallen creatures redeemed by Christ. We are still fully sinners who are unable to accurately commune with God. You do not understand what it means to have the mind of Christ, which is the proclamation of the Gospel for the forgiveness of sins. You have also fallen into the same trap as Nicodemus, in which you do not understand what seeing heaven is. Just as you thought that you actually see heaven, Nicodemus thought that you actually must be born again. Seeing heaven equals Baptism, which was what Christ was referencing. Even Paul is referring to Baptism in Ephesians, which provides illuminations for the eyes of the heart.
Kyle Richardson: By the way, in biblical language, the heart is the seat of thought and will and not emotions. Paul goes on to talk about this in chapter 5. You must read Scripture with the knowledge that it points to Christ, and not to self. You focus too much on the “communion,” not in the light of the Gospel, but in the light of mysticism. It is what is taught in evangelical churches now, and it is not your fault. Please, pick up a book like The Spirituality of the Cross by Gene Edward Veith, and he can explain it better than I can. I hope to see you in a Lutheran church one day 🙂